When things go wrong on eBay
I’ve had many positive experiences on eBay, and I consider it a great way to find obscure items. The feedback system is a great incentive for both buyers and sellers to operate in a professional and honest manner. Having had so many transactions go as smoothly as they did, I suppose it was time for the pendulum to swing to the wrong end.
And in this case, it did.
Here's a short summary:
- The seller listed the item as Like New with all accessories
- I paid immediately when the auction closed
- when the item was shipped, it was damaged and missing parts
- the seller would not cooperate and was quite hostile
- after his initial refusal to work with me, the seller would not respond to communication, by email or telephone
- when I was forced to take the matter to PayPal, the seller lied to them regarding our communication and claimed restitution had been made
- the seller dragged the process out to two months
- PayPal ruled in my favor, but I had to pay almost $30US in return shipping
- given the seller's actions and attitude, I'm expecting some truly epic negative feedback from him. (1)
And here are the gory details.
The auction in question was for an IM-DR80, a discontinued Sharp MiniDisc recorder. Mr. Pittman's auction advertised the item in Like New condition at a fairly reasonable price (cached here). The description claimed that it looked “brand new,” and that all the accessories were included but the charger. (I have spare chargers, so this is not an issue.)
- “Overall I think this thing has been used and turned on about 20 different occasions! It looks brand new sitting here on my desk!
- “(…)I have everything that came with the player with the exception of the charger.”
- “(…)# One-bit digital amp with 4 pole headphone connector.
# Backlit Kanji-capable LCD remote. - “(…)You get everything you see in the picture in its orginal box!”
- “(…)NOTE: I am including all the original contents of the box."
The auction ended 06/11/07. The total amount was $183.23. At 11:18PM that evening, PayPal confirmed my payment. I did not hear back from the seller until 06/19, when I received this:
Payments by PayPalDear Erik ****,
Ryan Pittman would like to be paid for an eBay item through PayPal.
————————————————————————
Money Request Details
Seller’s User ID: Nutop
Seller Email: ****@msn.com
Amount: $1,625.00 USD
Shipping & Handling: $135.70 USD
Insurance: $0.00 USD
Total Amount: $1,760.70 USD
————————————————————————
Pay With PayPal
PayPal makes it easy to send Ryan Pittman money. Click below to send this payment:
Huh? Turns out he had me confused with someone else. (In retrospect, this should have been a red flag.) After clearing this up, he shipped the unit out on 06/22. A week and a half after the auction, but not too bad. I wasn’t in much of the hurry, and told the seller as much.
I received the unit on 06/24, and when I opened the box, the only things included were the unit itself, the dock, a generic speaker cable and the manuals. Missing were the remote (without which the unit cannot function, as it has minimal controls on the unit body and no LCD), the external battery pack, and an adapter, which allows the recorder’s proprietary 4-pole output to be used with standard headphones.
The carrying case, headphones, optical and USB cables were also missing.
I emailed him immediately, and he responded on 06/25 as follows:
Hi there! I forgot to put the remote and battery adapter in the box! I am going to get those shipped out to you ASAP! I apologize for this but I want to make sure I get them out to you! If you have any questions please let me know! Thanks!
He showed some concern, but this didn’t address the damage to the player, and he could only supply some of the missing accessories. I replied back asking about the other parts, and he responded that those were the only ones he had.
At this point, I was dealing with a product that was damaged and incomplete. I figured I could work it out with him, and I sent the following:
Reply-To: lonelymachines@gmail.com
To: RyanPittman@msn.com
Subject: Re: Message from eBay Member Regarding Item #320124293225
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:11:14 -0400To be honest, at this point, I’d like to simply return the unit and
call the transaction a wash.You described the unit as looking brand-new, but it has scratches and a prominent dent on the front. Some of the lettering is also worn off. Your listing claimed that it would include all the contents of the box, except the charger. However, as I received it, the unit was missing all the accessories but the dock itself and an audio cable.
You also confused me with another buyer and tried to bill $1,760.70 to my PayPal account.
I just can’t say I’m happy with how this has turned out. I’ll cover the cost of shipping it back to you, and you can just refund the original total to my PayPal account. I don’t think you meant for this to go bad, so I won’t leave negative feedback.
Let me know where to ship it, and I’ll get it out this week.
His response arrived the following day:
Ryan Pittman wrote:
I did describe the product as it is! I said it is in like new condition! I examined the player before I placed it for sale! The item is not scratched up or scuffed! (2) As for the accessories, correct me if I am wrong but did I not contact you about the accessories admitting my mistake and willing to rectify to my mistake by sending the accessories immediatley out to you! You are simply chosing to be a difficult regarding this situation and I have been nothing but accomadating. As for accidently mistaking you for another bidder, that is irrelavant to our transaction. I simply sold a product to a bidder with a very similar name as yours and it was an easy and honest mistake. It is nothing more than you simply using something that is pointless for you to justify your current actions and is irrelavant to our business transaction. I have looked online to locate the accessories that come with this unit, and the product your are describing does not come with it. The only things you are missing is the battery adapter, remote with the headphone jack in it, and headphones, all of which I am willing to send you. The auction did state a “no return” policy, that you agreed to by placing the bid for this item. What I suggest is that you resell the item on ebay to get your money back if you do not want the item. I always try to conduct business professionaly and with integrity as I think I am right now by trying to be accomodating to your needs by sending you the remaining pieces to make sure I fullfill my end of the transaction. I have never had this much difficulty in trying to make a customer happy. I only see this as someone just chossing to be difficult out of spite. You can challenge the transaction through ebay and/or paypal, and I would be more than happy to share with them our previous correspondance illustrating that I contacted you regarding the missing parts, my willingness to cooperate, and accomadate your needs. If you cannot accept the responsibility of being accountable to your bid, Ebay is probably not the best of choices for you to purchase products. Also, another point to consider is that you purchased this player at half the cost new! With all do respect, I really do not see where you have much room to complain considering all the factors! I will send you out the remaining parts immediatley! I am sorry if this is not how you expected this transaction to work out! We are in agreement that I did not expect this to turn out the way it did! However, I am willing to hold up my end of the bargain, wether you are willing to or not! Sincerely, RC Pittman
Inwardly, I groaned. That's quoted exactly as he wrote it, spelling and grammar errors intact. He also likes exclamation points.
I collected myself, and tried again:
Subject: Re: Message from eBay Member Regarding Item #320124293225
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:17:09 -0400
From: Erik F
Reply-To: lonelymachines@gmail.com
Organization: LonelyMachines
To: RyanPittman@msn.comFirst of all, please try to see things from my side. There is no need to be insulting or make accusations.
The unit does have scratches on the front, worn-off writing and a dent under the AE logo. I’ve uploaded pictures here:
http://lonelymachines.org/sharp/sharp_dent1.jpg
http://lonelymachines.org/sharp/sharp_writing1.jpg
The specs in the listing (and on the official page: here) do include the adapter: “One-bit digital amp with 4 pole headphone connector.” You may have lost it, but the Sharps use a special 4-pole output that does not sound right with normal headphones. This is essential for the unit to be useful. I already checked, figuring that it would be a cheap thing, but this is an older model, and nobody sells the adapter anymore. I’d also point out that a carrying pouch and USB cable were also supposed to be included. Though I can provide those, your listing specifically states, “including all the original contents of the box.” This was not the case.
Although I understand your “no refund” policy, this is a case in which the item wasn’t as described. I’d rather not have to involve eBay or PayPal, as I’d hoped we could resolve this between us. As far as me being “spiteful,” I’m not. My feedback should speak for itself. Let me know.
He replied with this the following day:
None of my comments are not meant to be insulting but a response to your accusations. I was almost considering to be of service to your request believe it or not! You may now want to go collect the money from your friend on Ebay known as graphisphos-7. He decided to contact me about this situation and has no relevance to this transaction what-so-ever! There was no need for that and very stupid in my opinion. You have pursuaded me to stand by my decision. I am sticking to my no return policy because of these actions.
This is where it gets weird. I’ve never spoken or dealt to anyone named graphisphos-7. The only place I even mentioned this auction was on the T-Station forum, on which I frequently post. I checked, and there had been a user who went by the names Graphis_7 and Graphis_8. He had been banned for shady selling practices. Interestingly enough, graphisphos-7 has sold this exact unit on eBay before.
Apparently, this person was trolling the board and saw my post. Since this isn’t a common item, it would have been pretty easy to find the auction in question. I still don’t know what he wrote to the seller, but I sent a message to graphisphos-7 via eBay asking for clarification. He failed to respond, and I took the matter to eBay’s security department. (He also has a site on Xanga. Apparently, he’s Canadian and his name is Roger.)
I’m not sure what action they took, but he changed his username the following day. I emailed the seller to let him know that a) it had nothing to do with me, and b) that I’d taken steps to rectify the matter. He failed to respond. (3)
At this point, it had been three weeks since the auction closed, and Mr. Pittman was not communicating, nor had I received the missing parts he’d promised to send, so I requested his contact information from eBay. He failed to return numerous telephone messages, so realizing I was completely in the dark, I took the matter to PayPal.
I opened the dispute with the intention of re-opening communication, and having a third-party in on the process seemed a good idea as well:
From Buyer: ——– on 6/28/2007 19:57 PDT
We’ve discussed this previously, but I am unable to reach you by phone. I am contesting this because:
1) the item was listed as “looking brand new,” but has several scratches and a dent on the front panel and
2) the item was listed as having “all the original contents of the box,” but was missing almost all the accessories. I acknowledge that you have offered to send the remote and battery pack, but you cannot provide the 4-pole headphone adapter, which is needed for use with standard headphones.
As you are unable to make this whole and are not amenable to taking the item back, I must resort to this medium. I am willing to cover shipment back to you in exchange for a refund for this transaction.
About 40 minutes later, he responded with this:
From Seller: Ryan Pittman on 6/28/2007 20:34 PDT
I described the item to the description as I see it! (2) After shipping the item, I even contacted Mr. ——– first admitting to him that I had forgotten to ship a couple of the accessories and that I would ship them immediately and expedite them so that they would get to him quickly. I have been more than willing and accommodating to his needs through the entire time of this process. I currently have all the accessories that he has listed in his statement and ready to ship to him, including the headphone adapter that he mentions. The headphone adapter at first became the basis to our dispute, which should have been a question asked while the auction was open and before placing a bid! My auction also states a “No Return” policy that is clearly stated in the auction. Yet a return is being requested. However, I was considering accommodating his request, until another member of eBay, and obvious acquaintance of Mr. ——–, expressed his thoughts to me and how I had treated Mr. ——–. The have obviously have spoken to one another because this person new exactly what his concerns were! How else would he have known if they had not spoken to one another? That was uncalled for and very unprofessional! I explained to Mr. ——– that I will be sticking to my “No Return” policy because of these actions. I have been willing to fulfill my end of the agreement this whole time and I am still willing to send him the remaining accessories pending the results of this dispute!
He stretches it thin here. He did not contact me about the missing accessories; I had to hound him. He then immediately escalated the matter to a “claim,” shutting me out from responding. Had he been a bit more clever, I’d have been out of luck. Fortunately, our statements clashed so obviously that PayPal asked me for clarification.
During that time, he tried to tell PayPal that he'd already made restitution:
We are currently in the process of investigating your claim:
Case Number: PP-302-290-892
Transaction Date: Jun 11, 2007
Transaction Amount: -$183.23 USD
Seller's Name: Ryan PittmanTo continue our investigation, we require some additional information about the item in question. The seller has indicated that they are shipping the missing items. Have you received these items at this time? Please contact us at complaint-response@paypal.com or simply reply to this email within three days.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Karin
Protection Services Department
He never shipped anything, he was just stalling.
After making this clear, I was able to return the player (on my dime) for a refund, which is exactly what I’d proposed in the first place.
The return shipping cost me $30, as I had to get insurance, delivery confirmation and "adult signature" confirmation to be absolutely sure the guy wouldn't claim he didn't get it. (In fact, he appears to have tried just that. The package was signed for by "Booz.")
The funds were finally refunded to my account on 08/06. If you’re keeping track, that’s two months from the time the auction closed. This has taken up a massive amount of my time. As far as I can tell, this guy just dragged the unit out of his closet, posted some stock pictures, threw it in a box and sent it out. I guess he wasn’t expecting the buyer to look closely at it. When he was called on it, he became a real ogre about it, and he dragged the whole process out for far longer than necessary.
…………………………………………
So, why this page? Two reasons.
First off, it’s very likely that I’ll have some colorful and negative feedback from this guy. I’d like potential sellers and buyers to know the whole story, not just a pithy 80-character blurb in the feedback form. (1)
Second, I’d like to share what I learned from the process. For the sake of this, I’m assuming you’ve been civil and polite, and that you’ve tried to work things out with the seller on your own. This sort of measure is really a last resort, and don’t think you’re going to generate any sort of good will with the seller.
- If you have a problem with a seller, save all correspondence. This helped my case with PayPal, as I was able to show that the seller initially admitted to things he later denied. Also, when he alleged that I was in collusion with the third member, I was able to show that I’d been the one to go to eBay to handle that person.
- If you have to go into the dispute process, assume the worst. You’re not doing this because of a minor misunderstanding; most likely you’re dealing with someone who’s either uncooperative or dishonest. Don’t expect them to act honorably now that a third party is involved.
- Given such expectations of the seller’s conduct, open the dispute, state your case, then immediately escalate it to the “claim” stage. This is a case of “getting the last word in,” and it may sound petty, but as I said, you’re not taking it this far unless the seller shows absolutely no concern for making it right. He will likely do it if you do not.
- I was sorely tempted to tell this guy just what I thought of him a couple of times. Don’t do this. It can come back to haunt you, and it won’t look good to the mediator.
I’ve worked in customer service myself, and I can tell you that there is such a thing as an unreasonable customer. There are jerks who expect everything on a silver plate and just can’t be satisfied. Don’t be one of these people. You’ll get much better results through being polite and cooperative.
Sometimes, despite this, the whole process just melts down, though. Just make sure that this is exactly how far you need to take things before doing so.
…………………………………………………………………………
(1) Postscript, 08/10: He did, in fact, leave negative feedback:
Tried to resolve conflict but allowed no compromise! Difficult and no integrity!
LOL Very difficult person to deal with! His integrity came at a cheap price! ("LOL?")
I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, except that "integrity" is a word this guy throws around alot in the listing. Ebay policy prohibits putting links in the feedback blurb, so I pointed towards a blog entry that directs here.
(2) He has also re-listed the item, and it contains this little chestnut:
The player does have a very very small dent on the face of it. It is not very noticeable at all and is not a deep dent! I had to look at it from an angle to really notice it!
Which is really weird, given that he denied any damage when I dealt with him.
………………………………………………………
08/12/07:
Oh man, this thing just never ends. He posted the following in response to my eBay message.
In response to ——– blog/negative feedback in the event he deletes my comment in which I anticipate!
Judging from the voicemail message on his telephone, English is his first language. I'm not making fun of him. This is how he writes.
It is apparent in your posting and also in your feedback that you are now trying to degrade my character and give fellow ebayers a wrongful impression of me, and potentially hurt future customer experiences and business transactions. Why have you not told anyone that I contacted you first regarding the missing parts and how I wanted to correct the problem promptly after admitting my mistake.
I haven't told them because it didn't happen. I had to email him about the missing parts, and he told me was unable to provide all of them. In fact, he never delivered any parts.
I have realized that no matter what there are those people you sometimes come across, that no matter how hard you try, you can never match their expectations and make them happy. I am not even going to lash out at you and accuse you of being one of those people, and just let others judge you based upon your feedback left. Accusing me of being a lier, and making me out to be a bad business person, and not expressing any tid-bit of truth. So yes I do challenge your integrity, because you have yet to tell anyone that I avidly tried to correct the problem and your refusal to allow me to do so!
"How hard you try?" He offered a partial fix, then refused to cooperate at all. There are plenty of "tid-bits of truth." He refused to communicate. He should have taken the unit back. There's nothing unusual or difficult about that.
You didnt mention that you had your fellow friends email me with inappropriate comments!
Again, because it didn't happen. He has yet to provide proof of these "comments" to me, eBay or PayPal. Both sellers advertised on eBay Canada. After digging around the forums, I have reason to believe that he actually purchased the unit from this graphisphos person in March of 2006. The whole accusation was a sham and a stalling tactic. This compounds my annoyance, because I thought it had merit, and I went to eBay to clear things up.
That you failed to ask any questions about the product during the course of the auction! All FACTS! I had believed to describe the item as I saw it, as anyone does on ebay when placing a used item up for auction. I have yet called you a name, or accused you of being a liar or anything! And you call me hostile! Even take the facts away, this entire situation could have been handled more maturely on your part!
What, with more explanation points? I shouldn't have to contact sellers ahead of time to ask, "Hey, is the item really as described? Are you sure it has all the original parts? You didn't run it over with your car, did you? Did your 4-year-old use it for a Play-Doh press?"
He explicitly stated the condition and contents, and he delivered something different. He told PayPal he had all the missing parts when he did not. He also tried to close the claim by telling them he'd sent me the parts, when he hadn't. Shall I say he…"misrepresented things?" No, he lied.
And although this didn't quite degenerate into name-calling, Mr. Pittman did in fact call my character into question in his first response. I have no idea what "even take the facts away" is supposed to mean. The facts have already been stated.
I do say this to fellow Ebayers, that I hope our experience does not discourage you from doing business with either party. Please continue to do business with ——–! I am not going to sit here and tell you not to! That would be wrong! I understand that not everything is going to work smoothly all the time. This is the only time we both have ran into an issue, and it is our problem. Me personally, I am going to treat it as that, so that you may have a good experience with him!
Ah, an appeal to the community. So noble and well-intentioned. Where was this attitude when I was dealing with him?
I am not going to lash out, make false accusations, or a link to describe only my side of the story to degrade another individual out of self gratification. I don’t know any other reason why this would happen. If it is to say that I am a bad Ebayer, then I hope you can look at my other feedback and make an accurate decision for yourself. Everyone has opinions, but let my previous feedback provide you with truth and true testament of my character and what it is like to do business with me!
Perhaps Mr. Pittman can describe exactly how I've "lashed out?" I'm not making accusations; I'm presenting proof. There's no self-gratification involved; only a defense against negative (and misleading) feedback. I don't care about this person's character, only for the fact that he took a situation with a simple solution and turned it into a real hassle.
In any case, I have deleted his comment, as he's got it duplicated in his profile, and this is just getting to be a waste of bandwidth.